Relating to an idea by Alton Town Council for a Commuter Park & Ride Scheme using MHR
From: Christopher Jones
Sent: 19 January 2004 19:27
Subject: SWT Commuter Trains to Ropley Parkway
Dear Sir
I read with interest the recent correspondence regarding SWT services to
Ropley Parkway. David Snow is right to inform everyone that as the MHR have
not been approached they are hardly able to have any real views on what is
proposed. I also feel that suggestions of six week trials are a total waste
of time. People who travel to London to work will not change how they get
there if they think it is just a short term stunt. Also I do not think that
a field is suitable for parking in wet weather, we would make more money
from towing people out than from running the trains!
The idea is however something that I feel should be followed through. We
should note that it is SWT and Alton Town Council who are reported to be
looking into the idea, so let them come up with the plans. We should then
take a positive look at what they have to offer. We do not need to worry
about what fares could/should/would be charged, the trains should be SWT
run with their staff. We should only be involved in as far we will be the
'Network Rail' of our part of the line. SWT pay us to run their trains. They
can also buy the area for the parking and make it suitable for year round
use.
So following that way forward the risk is with SWT but we gain some income
from trains that run when ours are not running. If at some time in the future
we were able and wanted to run regular evening trains then we would have
to make sure that from the outset SWT's operation did not stop us from doing
so.
We could not let SWT electrify our line as that would pose far too many problems
and would ruin what we have. So SWT would have to run a diesel service from
Alton to Ropley using either a Heritage unit or one of the modern units that
rush through Wimbledon all the time when I am waiting for the slow electric
to Alton. That would be their decision.
Having been a member for under a year I hope my thoughts do not tread on
anyone's toes as I certainly do not want to tell those who have been involved
for many years how to run things. That said, 'income' is how we make it possible
to keep the railway running and if SWT want to enable us to make some extra
income we do need to look at it very carefully once we have received a firm
proposal. In the meantime no amount of pie in the sky will help us and neither
will a negative attitude.
Christopher Jones
From: Stephen Lewis
Sent: 16 January 2004 23:14
Subject: What a negative lot we are!
Dear Tony
Following up on my E-mail of the 15th Jan, I am interested to read the thoughts
of Simon Baggott. Since my E-mail, David Snow's letter has appeared in the
Alton Herald as part of an article entitled, "Mid Hants throws doubt on commuter
service rumours". Both he and Simon seem to be trying their very best to
think of reasons why not to run public service trains. One cannot deny that
railways are expensive, and being a working museum, somewhat difficult to
tie in with what we already stand for.
As I said previously, this is a challenge - nobody said it was going to be
easy! It seems to be a very British preserve to start from a negative standpoint.
Why not think, "How can we make this happen?". David Snow's response, like
so many responses I've had from this railway, only put out negative vibes.
I'm not picking on him - a lot of the 'management' is of a similar mind!
Once this kind of thinking is in the public's consciousness, it reduces us
from a group of enthusiasts down to a load of stick-in-the-muds. There's
plenty for the public to complain about, whether it's the noise, soot smuts,
late-night running, frightening animals, awkward bridges, reduced property
prices, boys playing trains. We should be inspiring people, both young and
old - give them something to admire and take part in. We're having problems
keeping volunteers; if we loose the public's support, then we'll be up a
creek without a paddle. Come on you lot, stop pouring on reasons for not
doing anything and think of some good reasons to DO SOMETHING!
So, thinking positively, how can we start without making large capital outlays
or disrupting our 'heritage' services? If we set a trial period of say six
weeks, we could hopefully negotiate to rent the field we use at Ropley, put
out publicity and positive articles in the papers, and see if people turn
up. We would need to find drivers and guards, who we should pay to work the
diesel railcar during the week between 6.30am to 9.30am, and 5pm to 9pm at
times to meet the London-bound services. If the trial took place from 23rd
February until 2nd April, it theoretically wouldn't clash with our steam
services. Hopefully it would be a success, and we would then have to work
out how we are going to work alongside the weekday steam days. However, if
you look at the timetable, trains start at 11.20am and finish at 4.47pm on
'normal' days; the specials tend to start earlier, but not before 9.30am
if I remember correctly. In time, we would be justified in paying signalmen,
ticket inspectors, platelayers and car park attendants, not to mention acquiring
more diesel stock, such as the Hampshire units. I'm not up in these things,
but could we not look at raising the line speed through the light railway
order to 40mph? I know it has implications for the condition of stock, track,
health and safety etc., but I do wonder if such an order couldn't reflect
the two types of service being run.
My answer no doubt seems naive to those in the know, but it is also optimistic.
All I ask, both as a railway enthusiast and local resident, is that the railway
looks at this issue with a positive 'can-do' attitude. Clearly there are
those that 'don't want to do', but I think those people should think hard
about their reasoning. Many of you are keen on preserved railways because
you remember things as they were - 'the good old days'. People like me (I'm
31) don't remember steam engines or the times up to the 60's; all I remember
are ghastly old faded turquoise-blue trains with claustrophobic non-corridor
compartments and no support from government or the general public. My generation
are the people who are going to inherit your railway, and we'll no doubt
want different things from it. I love railways, not just for their history,
but just for what they are (don't ask why!). Preserved railways are museums,
like it or not, and in the future I suspect that once the enthusiasm from
the 'old hands' has gone, only those lines that have a careful strategy will
make it. In other words, there might be a second era of closures through
bankruptcy. Other lines might choose to return to being more-or-less working
railways, such as 'Peak Rail' or the Swanage line.
In our case, we are lucky to have the connection to the 'main line', but
before long that will cease to be a novelty as people like the Bluebell
and the Kent and East Sussex achieve the same end. We must look
to our laurels, think about who we are and what we want to achieve; more
importantly, how are we going to fund it? I know we have an income of
£2million, but in railway terms, that's a mere drop in the ocean - the
proposed new high-speed to line to Scotland was quoted as being £36billion,
and the restoration of the second line from Farnham to Alton at £30million
(so rumour has it). Even the Bluebell takes in £4million, and
unlike some preserved lines, we have chosen to devote a large chunk of our
income to paying staff. All this is bound to limit us when it comes to buying
and restoring locomotives and stock. By being a partially working railway
and preserved line, I believe we will both gain income and status in the
minds of both members and the general public. In turn, I think this will
give us the ability to adapt and overcome problems in the future, changing
with the needs of those same people who make us what we are.
Stephen Lewis
From: Simon Baggott
Sent: 16 January 2004 18:09
Subject: Commuting and the MidHants
Tony
Well if nothing else the Alton Herald article
has stirred up some debate, and why not. I thought I'd add my threepennyworth.
I think that David Snow's response was absolutely spot on. There is an awful
lot of ground to cover before a commuter service could be contemplated, however
much we might or might not like to provide such a service.
The first question to answer would be where is the money to come from? Our
return fare is £10, but compare that to the fare SWT's customers pay
for the journey to London. The £3 to £4 fare we could charge wouldn't
be economical for us on it's own, so we would need a subsidy. Another
consideration would be whether the new service would abstract passengers
from existing heritage services and what the effect of that on the railway
would be.
What sort of service would be provided for commuters. Is it a peak period
service or a service throughout the day? How would these additional trains
fit with existing services? If the trains ran throughout the day how would
we for example, operate a Thomas event? The line is already at capacity on
such days and additional trains might mean doubling the track or reducing
MidHants operations. We need to understand the mode of operation. Would we
operate trains from Alresford to Alton where passengers would cross the platform
to continue the journey, or would through trains be operated? If the latter
how would we achieve this? Either Diesel units would have to be used or the
third rail would have to be extended. Diesel trains operating Alresford to
London would conflict with the electric services. Third rail electrification
may not be compatible with a volunteer Heritage railway. Through runnning
would presumably involve the standard length trains,which none of the Mid-Hants
platforms or loops could accommodate. Lengthening existing platforms and
loops would be very difficult given the lack of available land.
The line speed limit of 25mph means that the Alresford to Alton journey would
take twice as long as by car and very nearly as long as Alton to London.
So that would have to be raised, perhaps to 75mph. That could mean that the
signalling systems would need replacing, loops realigning. In addition it
would almost certainly mean that the railway could no longer operate under
it's light railway status. The consequence of being a 75mph railway might
include things like banning Mk1 carriages (the mainstay of our fleet) and
introducing central door locking.
Returning to the subject of signalling systems, ours is very labour intensive.
We have to have three signalboxes manned whenever we want to run a passenger
train. It would be possible to rebuild the systems to "switch out" boxes
but that means capital investment. The Mid-Hants is so very different to
the network it connects with that about the only thing in common is the gauge.
The most practical way of providing a service for commuters would be for
the Mid-Hants to run peak-period services using it's own stock over the the
existing railway with investment in limited changes to signalling to permit
some boxes to be closed out when not required and perhaps a slightly higher
speed limit. But would the need to change trains and the slow journey time
and limited service not dissuade many of the potential customer's? Overcoming
the issues that stand in the way of through running would require a lot of
investment. I question if there are really enough passengers in the Alresford
and M4M area to justify what would be a multi-million pound investment
(regardless of the mode of traction).
The effect on the railway of through running would be profound. I believe
it would struggle to maintain it's heritage atmosphere, incur increased
maintenance costs, be beholden to the government for grants, and may not
be able to run all the steam services it does now. The scheme might in fact
end up harming the local economy by reducing the number of tourist visitors.
Finally, I don't accept that steam is about to die out, and that therefore
the railway must think about what it does next. The demise of big steam engines
has been predicted since 1968 and it hasn't happened yet. Certainly the building
of a really big boiler from new, which will have to happen sooner or later,
will be a big challenge, but it's the sort of challenge the heritage movement
has proven very adept at handling. By contrast only the Romney Hythe and
Dymchurch runs a successful commuter service (one train a day 5 days a week)
mixed with a Heritage railway, and I don't think that has made them rich.
What's more the Romney's operation has the advantage of being completely
self contained. If SWT make an approach, fine. Let's consider it, and if
the issues can be resolved, and there is a benefit to the Mid-Hants, that's
great. Just don't let's underestimate the size of the barriers that would
have to be overcome. Which I think is what David Snow was saying in a much
shorter way. I don't thing that the Mid-Hants has a head in the sand attitude
at all.
Simon Baggott
From: Eric Nicholass
Sent: 16 January 2004 13:15
Subject: Mid- Hants Commuter Services
Tony
Given that SWT summarily withdrew with one days notice to passengers and
three days notice to staff, virtually all trains between Ascot and Guildford
via Aldershot, on Mondays to Friday from from last Monday "for the next few
months", I would have thought the management of SWT would find their time
better spent in finding ways of restoring the services they should be providing
rather indulgencing in flights of fantasy concerning our railway
Eric Nicholass
From: Stephen Lewis
Sent: 15 January 2004 22:31
Subject: Commuter services on the Mid-Hants
Dear Tony
I was interested to read the article in the
9th January issue of the Alton Herald (referred to by David Snow).
I wasn't surprised to hear that the railway has yet to be consulted through
official channels - this demonstrates that one should be very careful about
what to believe in the press.
The implications for the railway running commuter services is both interesting
and challenging for the railway. I only moved here a year ago, and already
have mixed feelings about the railway and its policies. However, one cannot
view this issue without looking at the wider picture. In the last few days
I've seen newspaper articles rubbishing the Strategic Rail Authority's (SRA)
plans for the next ten years, and another saying that a high-speed link to
Scotland is being shelved. Despite doubts over the viability of railways,
we are privileged to have the channel tunnel and its link-line, not to mention
Eurostar. The West Coast Main Line upgrade is in progress (all be it at a
high overrun cost), and new trains are being introduced across the network.
Locally, a new depot is being built for the new 'Desiro' trains at Farnham,
the Alton Oil terminal is going to increase its output, and it is likely
that the new Alton recycling plant is going to have a rail connection. In
turn, the Alton Line Users Association have been pushing for all or
part of the second running line to be reinstated from Farnham to Alton, and
for better services and carparking provision for commuters. Whilst I am not
yet a member, I back them whole-heartedly.
This leads us back to the Alton Herald newspaper article, and the reaction
from David Snow (MHRplc Chairman) and Chris Castleman. I strongly support
the railway preservation movement; I believe it provides a valuable service
to the community through education, entertainment, creativity and fulfilment.
By this, I mean it is tourist attraction, enthusiasts' haven and a place
where people can enjoy themselves as a volunteer. One thing we are not doing
is providing a public transport service. Whilst it may seem alien to those
committed to preserving what was, to those who live near the line, it is
an unfulfilled potential. On top of that, as Mr. Castleman says, steam engines
can only get more expensive to run as things wear out through use.
It has to be admitted that the general public do present problems when
considering running service trains, but I believe that it could provide a
regular income for the railway. If we could show that the line reduces rush-hour
traffic on the roads, then we might indeed have a good case for finding backing
and funds to rebuild to Winchester. On top of that, if a large car park were
to be built at Ropley for Park and Ride (as the article suggests),
we would have the benefit of better car parking for our special events. From
what I have seen so far, this railway seems to shrink from challenges rather
than embrace them. This surely, of all things, should be a challenge we should
make every effort to meet and succeed at, helping to serve the communities
we pass through.
Regards
Stephen Lewis
From: Christopher D Castleman
Sent: 14 January 2004 15:17
Subject: The Watercress Line & Commuting
I read the pieces on the web-site concerning this topic today and felt a
mixture of emotion. "How dare others use our railway for their deserts" was
rapidly overtaken by "Hey, we could make money here, why not?"
If we stand back and look at the transport in the Winchester/Alton/Aldershot
corridor, there seems basically only the A31 that runs the whole length.
If we were sitting at our desks in 1870 and putting a case down for the W
& A R then, would we not have common reasons for wanting such a service
with our descendants doing the same exercise in 2004? The watercress trade
has gone to the 38 tonne truck; the single wagon goods has disappeared also,
but I would suggest the dormitory & working opportunities now in Winchester,
Alton & Aldershot and places between, more than make up for these losses.
There are many of us who were, are, or will be, sad that the railway has
never been able to build back westwards. I know there are many reasons why
not and no doubt the purchase of land lost to us would put an amazing burden
on the MHR, not forgetting of course bridging the M3 and re-siting the junction,
as housing makes using the old one impossible.
But if we look "out of the box", should we not be striving for that end at
this time? We know that getting good coal costs a lot of money & time;
we have a good supply of volunteers at the moment, but the vast majority
seem to be "older" rather than "younger"; the expertise base is slowly but
surely reducing; and last, our main draw, the locomotives, are getting older
and most probably more costly to repair.
Should MHRPS & MHRplc not be considering what the Company will do when
and if we cannot, for internal or external reasons, run our precious steam
trains? Could we not "morph" into a service, between Winchester & Alton,
using our own modern diesel multiple units, with our own staff? We own half
of the old Mid-Hants track, or nearly so, whilst maintaining this for modern
units would not be any more difficult than what we do nowadays. The capital
cost of modern units is great & no doubt any financial wizard will tell
you that we could not afford them.
But why not seriously find out?
When we do "run out" of the steam option, what do we do? Run "Heritage" diesels,
worthy of course as they take their place in the historical context. But
are we likely to see such an enthusiast response? Would we be on the slope
to actually selling off the railway because we cannot make it pay with that
sort of motive power? Would we in fact sell it back to Network Rail and would
they extend westwards from Alton, using their greater financial strength
and do something we should have striven to do?
We must not forget that the railway is a solution to a need: there is no
reason for its existence otherwise. If the good people of East Hampshire
want to use a train from Alresford for commuting shouldn't we set about finding
out the cost of providing one?
Regards
Chris D Castleman
From: David Snow*
Sent: 13 January 2004 20:04
To: Tony Wood
Subject: RE: MHR commuter trains?
Tony
Following is my response to Alton Herald for this weeks issue.
Dear Sirs
In your edition of 9th January you have a front page story referring to an
investigation into the possibility of the Watercress Line providing a commuter
service to Alton.
On behalf of the railway I would like to make a few points clear both to
our own members and volunteers, and to local residents. Firstly the Watercress
Line has not been officially involved in any of the discussions to date.
One of our directors has been present at some of the meetings, but as a
representative of the Alton Line Users Association. He has been reporting
back to our MD, but for meetings where he has not been present we have had
no feedback. It is therefore an overstatement to suggest that we have
‘given considerable thought to the logistics of such a service’.
The Watercress Line is certainly willing to look at the possibility of running
a limited commuter service provided that this can be done in a way that does
not unduly compromise the heritage railway atmosphere that we are trying
to create. It is also important to investigate how this would impact on our
other services and on track maintenance work. Equally we are concerned to
ensure that our existing customer facilities are not compromised, and that
the impact on the locality is carefully considered. No formal proposal has
been made for a large park & ride at Ropley. There are many issues to
be addressed before any clear proposal can be made, and of course formal
approval processes will have to be followed.
David Snow*
*Chairman, MHRplc ... tw
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Wood
Sent: 13 January 2004 12:17
To: David Snow
Subject: MHR commuter trains?
Hello David
Please see Latest News.
If you'd like to add anything, I can post it to our Letters Page.
Rgds
Tony Wood
Letters about our main line runs are usually moved here after a while
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